306DT Brakes ain't too good

Hi

I recently purchased my first ever car - 1994 306 D Turbo with 117miles
on the clock

Have gradually been getting it into as good a condition as I can. My
current project is the brakes. Now, when I got it the discs were badly
worn and warped so I replaced them and the pads which stopped the
horrible shuddering I was feeling during braking!

However, the brakes aren't very effective. Maybe I'm expecting too much
as up till now I have been able to drive my parents' much newer cars,
but I still think they're inadequate.

I have the Haynes manual and I read that I could pump the brake pedal a
few times to expel the vaccuum and then restart the engine and feel the
pedal give - if it doesn't give then it's a faulty/worn master cylinder.
Now, it gave a *bit*, but nothing like what my parents' cars do. The
pedal also feels very spongy and travels a good couple of inches, but
doesn't creep all the way to the floor, or anywhere close.

From looking at the condition of the master cylinder itself (pretty
rusty around the seals etc), I would say that it is the original one
from '94.

My first plan is to change the brake fluid and see if this improves
anything as I believe water and air get into it over time and reduce
performance, and then I will renew the master cylinder if not.

Are there other places I should be looking (calipers etc??) before I
spend £50 on a master cylinder to find that it makes no difference!?

Thanks in advance

Jamie

 

I got one of the same age, and just after it passed the MOT, the master
cylender did start to fail. The brakes had never been too good, and I had
already replaced the disks and pads. I put in a new master cylender, and all
is now much better.
The price of a master cylender in the GSF catalogue is £34.50 assuming you
don't have ABS. www.gsfcarparts.com

It is also worth checking the state of the rear wheel cylenders. They do
start to leak fluid after some time, and this contaminates the shoes. If is
really bad, you will see the back of the brake plate is wet.

Brian.

 

I got one of the same age, and just after it passed the MOT, the master

Thanks for your advice. I will have to have a look at the rear brakes,
for some reason or other drum brakes have always been a weird thing to
me, guess I'll have to have a look at them though with the Haynes out...
I don't seem to be losing fluid from the reservoir at all.

It has just suddenly come to mind that I noticed that one of my front
callipers was a bit gungy when I replaced the discs - I wiped it off so
that I could check at a later date if more had accumulated. Would this
most likely just be a deteriorated brake hose or could it be the
calliper itself?

I really don't need the expense of new callipers lol.

Thanks for the link to GSF, and you're correct, I don't have ABS. I
don't know if this makes sense, but I feel that the brakes are even less
effective now that I have the new discs on....

 

If you are not losing fluid, then it's more likely that the
auto adjusters have stopped working. That will cause quite a lot
of pedal travel to compensate for the wear in the shoes/drums.

A quick check before taking the rear brakes apart(1), try
jacking the rear of the car up and spinning the wheels. Pull the
handbrake up until the brakes *just* start to drag, they should
both be about the same, if not then at least one of the adjusters
is not working.
Also if there is a significant difference in the feel
of the pedal between this setting and with the handbrake
fully off it is almost certainly the rear brake adjustment.

(1) You'll need a 32mm 6-point socket (a 12-point will keep
slipping off), a large breaker bar, a torque wrench that does at
least 200Nm, new hub nuts and a large collection of swear words.
(Guess who's just done his rear brakes

The new discs and pads may still be bedding in if you haven't
driven very far yet.

-Mark

 

I second that. I recently had new discs and pads fitted on the front end
of my 406 and noticed the same falling off in efficiency. After a couple
of weeks they had bedded in and were fine again.

 

Sounds like old brake fluid to me. I’ve just overhauled my brakes and
new brake fluid makes a big difference. It needs changing at least
every two years because it absorbs water from the atmosphere.

Also the "bedding in" makes for strange brake action and it can take
a while before the brakes are fully bedded in.

I agree with you about drum brakes, there’s something odd about them
and I’m glad I don’t have them anymore.

Calipers in the scrappy often seem gungy to me, I presume it’s grease
on newly reconditioned calipers, I don’t think it’s anything to worry
about.

 

Firstly, thanks to everyone for replies. I tell you what I have noticed
- if I park up and pull the handbrake on with the footbrake still
applied, the brake pedal moves considerably - is this what you mean?

Hehe, thanks for that - what do I do once I've taken it all apart? Get
the Haynes out?

Ahh, that'll be it!

 

Sounds like old brake fluid to me. I’ve just overhauled my brakes and

I will try changing that then as soon as I get the chance - it looks
quite dark in colour which I believe is a sign of age.

Woo - did you change car or did you do a conversion? How easy would
rear discs be to fit on my car? They seem a stupid idea to me - I
presume the must be a lot cheaper than discs as this seems the only good
reason to fit them in the first place!

Ah right, I wondered if it was some collection of brake fluid and brake
dust?! But I'm not losing any fluid so I guess not...

 

Yes, that would be another symptom. Mine used to do that as well.
That means that the rear brake(s) aren't touching the drums, and
when you pull on the handbrake the extra space is being taken up.

Next time you come to a stop, try pressing harder on the pedal,
you'll probably find it sinks a bit more and then doesn't sink
any further when you pull the handbrake on.

If that is what is happening, I'll guess that you are probably
finding it difficult to come to stop without the car jerking
at the end, as you are only braking on the front wheels?

You'll probably find the adjuster ratchet wheel is siezed
with large amounts of brake dust and assorted gunk, which
you'll need to free up.

I removed the auto adjuster spring from mine, as it will
almost certainly stop working again. This allows easier access
to the ratchet through the wheel-nut holes so I could
manually adjust it. I guess it depends on how lucky you feel.

Other than that, do what it says in the haynes manual or have
a look at the various threads in uk.rec.cars.maintenance which
have discussed servicing drum brakes at great length.

-Mark

 

Woo - did you change car or did you do a conversion? How easy would

It was an upgrade. I needed to change the entire rear suspension
assembly on my 205 after a shoddy garage replcement of the original.
The scrappy had a 1.9GTi assembly and I decided to fit it, mainly as a
project and partly because it was in good condition.

You’ll need an assembly off a GTi 6 or similar and rear brake inline
compensators to stop the rear wheels locking up (check you don’t
already have compensators). It takes an hour and a half with practice,
or a day if the bolts wont play ball. I would advise caution with this
job though cos it could go wrong (i.e. youre rear brakes could lock up
causing you to crash).

 

Thanks again - much appreciated.