40 mpg Prius vs 50 mpg European Diesel cars

Michelle, as a fellow Arizonan (Zonie) I have to mention the best we've had
is the round trip from Flagstaff to Sedona and back: 61 mpg for the 60 mile
trip with about 2000 ft difference in elevation. Hybrids love hills!

Mike

 

Close enough description, I think. Don't touch it, you'll break it. Sit back
und watch der blinkenlights.

Mike

 

A coupl points to be added to the above.

The life of the batteries I know they are specially made given a standard
battery life is 3-4 years. The cost of replacement plus warranty period
(this may be seperate). Are they ( battery) recyclable.
Like all cars they will at some point will required repair /service and
the cost of this service ????????

Yandoit Australia

*
* *

+ "A poor excuse is like an old bucket; doesn't matter
what shape it's in, as long as it holds water"
*
PK Shaw


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As Maxwall Smart would say " The old consumer pays trick. "
Yandoit Australia

*
* *

+ "A poor excuse is like an old bucket; doesn't matter
what shape it's in, as long as it holds water"
*
PK Shaw


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Expected life of Prius battery exceeds 10 years.

The cost of replacement plus warranty period (this may be seperate).

Who knows? None have been replaced yet. I heard the price has dropped
considerably.

Are they ( battery) recyclable.

Yes.

Like all cars, that depends on what needs to be serviced and where the
service is performed.

 

=>
=>A lot of people used to be very sloppy and/or careless when they filled up
=>and the next in line usually got some fuel on the bottom of their shoes,
=>which meant tracking it inside the car. Gasoline without the scent added
=>smells gross.
=>I buy clear K-1 and though I'm very careful with it I do get some on my
=>hands. It lingers like chlorine bleach.
=>I don't care how clean diesel becomes in the future, the exhaust is
=>typically very heavy and doesn't dissipate as easily as the fumes from
=>burned gasoline. I don't know a single person who enjoys being behind a
=>diesel, in slow traffic, on a hot summer day.
=>
=>mark_

Smelly? Another urban myth?

Never smell anything behind UPS vans(MB/Dodge/Freight liner Sprinter Diesel
Van) and they have been running in US for years now. Also, Sprinter van is the
hottest commercial van on the market for years. For 28MPG, no other US vans
can beat it.

 

Me too.

I hope to make it at least once; until about a decade ago, I was not
emotionally ready to visit it, and since then I haven't had the
opportunity to visit DC.

-- Michelle

 

Wow. When I left Houston in 1987 (to move north), gas was 67 cents/gal

 

Just wait until diesel cars start using bio fuel.


Yandoit Australia


Things only even go wrong at the last moment

J.D.Boatwood


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No shit. That will drive the price of food up.

 

This is one of the most interesting threads I have seen anywhere
recently - so much so I sorted by date and went through again. It is
great to learn so much about day-to-day use of hybrids and about
batteries and diesel technology.

One thing which is not clear is whether diesel is inherently more
expensive to produce than petrol. I suppose the differential depends,
in part, on the type of crude and, possibly, dealing with sulphur.

The free gift of hybrids is regenerative braking - the fossil fuels we
will continue to waste until this is universal should make us weep.

The thread contains convincing evidence that there is no real barrier
to diesel hybrids. My arithmetic suggests that a diesel-powered Prius
would do around 35.

What remains unresolved, for me anyway, is whether there is (or needs
to be) any significant difference in pollution between petrol/diesel.

 

I would rather see bio fuel used to heat homes instead of using it for
vehicles.
Alternatives such as wood, coal, pellets and corn are a pain in the ass
unless one never leaves his home for any extended period of time.
mark_

 

There is not really a technical barrier to making a dieseel hybrid function.
However, as I mentioned before, there is a cost barrier that consumers may
not be willing to pay because there is a premium price for a diesel and a
premium price for a hybrid system, so the price of a diesel hybrid could be
so high that nobody would purchase it.

The other potential barrier to diesel hybrid sales is that Toyota markets
hybrids as a "greener" alternative to conventionally powered vehicles, and
many people, especially in the U.S., perceive diesel as a dirtier engine so
the number of prospective buyers might be to small to justify development
and production costs.

 

It wasn't always so. Time was that Mercedes charged a premium for the gas
engines. If I remember correctly (always a chancy thing), the -D was, for
some years, the bargain basement Mercedes and a gasoline engine was $3K
upgrade (might have brought along more features).

I can't think of any particular reason why a diesel should be significantly
more expensive than a gas engine - at least not any intrinsic reason.
Doesn't it have a similar part-count and similar fabrication methods? Those
two items should pretty much determine the cost to produce, shouldn't they?
Fixed costs divided by unit production make a difference. If the diesels
are low-volume production, the fixed-cost per unit would be higher but I
doubt this would justify a huge price difference in the motors. Other
supply chain overhead might also drive up the cost of the lower-volume
engine a bit.



*** ***

 

I think that the lower volume of diesel engines for many automotive
applications is what drives up the cost, plus the additional battery
capacity. The mechanical fuel injectors used to be very expensive, modern
electronic ones are probably in line with the cost of a gas engine.

 

Could be because the diesel engine is in fact dirtier than the gasoline
models you mention? For example, you cannot buy a new VW TDI diesel in
my state, because the emissions are so bad.

2006 VW Golf TDI, EPA air pollution score of 1, LEV. Not sold in CA or
the New England states.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/21884.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/21885.shtml

2006 VW New Beetle TDI, EPA air pollution score of 1, BIN9. Not sold
in CA or the New England states.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/21779.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/21780.shtml

2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, EPA air pollution score of 8, BIN3, not
sold in CA or the New England states, or for the CA emission version is
an air pollution score of 9, SULEV II.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22459.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22602.shtml

2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, EPA air pollution score of 8, BIN3, not
sold in CA or the New England states, or for the CA emission version is
an air pollution score of 9.5, SULEV II.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22016.shtml

(fueleconomy.gov doesn't have the 2007 model years available yet,
otherwise I would've included the available 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid.
no score was listed for the VW Jetta TDI.)

(EPA air pollution scores are based on 1=worst, 10=best. For the
Maximum allowed grams per mile Emission limits at full useful life
(100,000-120,000 miles), see:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/rating.htm )

To note the limits for the non-CA emission states (listed as maximum
grams per mile):

NOx=Oxides of Nitrogen: Compounds containing nitrogen and oxygen; they
combine with hydrocarbons in the sunlight to form smog
1 = 0.6
8 = 0.03

NMOG=Non-Methane Organic Compounds: Compounds containing carbon; they
combine with NOx in the sunlight to form smog
1 = 0.280
8 = 0.055

CO=Carbon Monoxide: A colorless, odorless, poisonous gas
1 = 6.4
8 = 2.1

PM=Particulate Matter: Tiny particles of solid matter that lodge in the
lungs and deposit on buildings
1 = 0.08
8 = 0.01

HCHO=Formaldehyde: A lung irritant and carcinogen
1 = 0.027
8 = 0.011


So yes, I would say that the diesels are dirtier (more than 2x for
HCHO, 20x for NOx) than the Toyota hybrids, because they are.

 

Dodge Sprinter is selling in every states.
<http://www.dodge.com/sprinter/>
UPS/Fedex Sprinter vans are running everywhere.
Do you smell anything behind UPS/Fedex van?
Do oil companies make special Diesel fuel for them to use?
Do you think UPS/Fedex are stupid NOT for profit companies?


=>
=>Could be because the diesel engine is in fact dirtier than the gasoline
=>models you mention? For example, you cannot buy a new VW TDI diesel in
=>my state, because the emissions are so bad.
=>
=>2006 VW Golf TDI, EPA air pollution score of 1, LEV. Not sold in CA or
=>the New England states.
=>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/21884.shtml
=>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/21885.shtml
=>
=>2006 VW New Beetle TDI, EPA air pollution score of 1, BIN9. Not sold
=>in CA or the New England states.
=>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/21779.shtml
=>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/21780.shtml
=>
=>2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, EPA air pollution score of 8, BIN3, not
=>sold in CA or the New England states, or for the CA emission version is
=>an air pollution score of 9, SULEV II.
=>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22459.shtml
=>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22602.shtml
=>
=>2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, EPA air pollution score of 8, BIN3, not
=>sold in CA or the New England states, or for the CA emission version is
=>an air pollution score of 9.5, SULEV II.
=>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22016.shtml
=>
=>(fueleconomy.gov doesn't have the 2007 model years available yet,
=>otherwise I would've included the available 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid.
=>no score was listed for the VW Jetta TDI.)
=>
=>(EPA air pollution scores are based on 1=worst, 10=best. For the
=>Maximum allowed grams per mile Emission limits at full useful life
=>(100,000-120,000 miles), see:
=>http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/rating.htm )
=>
=>To note the limits for the non-CA emission states (listed as maximum
=>grams per mile):
=>
=>NOx=Oxides of Nitrogen: Compounds containing nitrogen and oxygen; they
=>combine with hydrocarbons in the sunlight to form smog
=>1 = 0.6
=>8 = 0.03
=>
=>NMOG=Non-Methane Organic Compounds: Compounds containing carbon; they
=>combine with NOx in the sunlight to form smog
=>1 = 0.280
=>8 = 0.055
=>
=>CO=Carbon Monoxide: A colorless, odorless, poisonous gas
=>1 = 6.4
=>8 = 2.1
=>
=>PM=Particulate Matter: Tiny particles of solid matter that lodge in the
=>lungs and deposit on buildings
=>1 = 0.08
=>8 = 0.01
=>
=>HCHO=Formaldehyde: A lung irritant and carcinogen
=>1 = 0.027
=>8 = 0.011
=>
=>
=>So yes, I would say that the diesels are dirtier (more than 2x for
=>HCHO, 20x for NOx) than the Toyota hybrids, because they are.

 

DH wrote:

"I can't think of any particular reason why a diesel should be
significantly
more expensive than a gas engine - at least not any intrinsic reason."

The high compression ratios are the main reason. Everything is hunkier
and heavier built, from the pistons to the connecting rods and the
crankshaft, bearings and crankcase, and the fuel metering system and
injectors must also accommodate high pressures and temperatures and
vibration. Bearings and rings tend to be more sophisticated in their
design, requiring more machining and additional parts, and the
lubrication system is more sophisticated, with even the old VW Rabbit
having piston-cooling oil showers. More noise-deadening padding and
baffling must be employed. And since the ignition is by compression
rather than spark, the engines are less amenable to electronic control,
reducing the beneficial impact of one of the biggest savings drivers in
automotive design today. Emissions are more difficult to clean up,
too. Despite what you've read on this thread, modern European
automotive diesels are plenty stinky, though I admit they are improved.

 

I wonder what your neighbours would think of you burning old fish & chip
oil.



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<The high compression ratios are the main reason. Everything is
hunkier
and heavier built, from the pistons to the connecting rods and the
crankshaft, bearings and crankcase, and the fuel metering system and
injectors must also accommodate high pressures and temperatures and
vibration. >

I think you are wrong. Both diesel and petrol engines are built to the
same tolerances and, though engine management for diesels is even more
sophisticated than petrol, the impact on cost is negligible.

The only convincing reason I know of for diesel engines being more
expensive is that a much smaller number of them are made. Thus the
development costs must be recovered from a smaller throughput.

The things you mention might call for a few extra grams of steel -
chickenfeed.

If a diesel system is produced in similar numbers to petrol you will
find little difference in cost per engine.

And I have a theory that diesel engines last longer - because their
fuel has some lubricating properties, unlike petrol.

Thus a mass-produced diesel might well yield a whole of life cost less
than the petrol equivalent.