406 Running unevenly

I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have been driving it
on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and the car will intermittently
"kick" or "jolt" as if it loses power for a split second. It will then
continue relatively smoothly and the problem may happen again every few
minutes.

On one occassion it the engine has stalled when I have come to a set of
traffic lights, on another occassion the orange engine management light
has illuminated. I have also had a situation where the car 'splutters'
i.e I put my foot on the accelerator and it barely responds and then
power eventually is produced.

Other reports of the same problem indicate either MAP sensors or spark
plugs.

I assume an error would be reported by the engine management system if
it was hooked up to a diagnostic computer but I am hesitant about being
taken for a ride at a Peugeot dealer.

Can anyone assist ?

 

Sounds like MAP sensor to me. Firstly, check ALL the pipework for leaks - I
had a split in the vacuum pipe to my MAP sensor, and it caused similar
issues. If that doesn't sort it, then replace the sensor - they aren't
particularly expensive.
No idea where it is on yours - mine was a 2.0 8v

 

or it might be just as simple as a clogged up fuel filter....

 

I had a problem like this years ago and the mob who look after the
vehicle found some error reports stored in the system. These pointed to
a faulty sensor - I forget what it sensed - anyway they fixed the
problem. I think it was a temp sensor.

 

Surely that would never happen though, unless the car has never been
serviced ?

 

Had same kind of problem.
Turned out to be the ignition coils...

Aat

 

or you have contaminated the fuel tank in east afganistan with a
diesel/chemical waste substance.....

 

Sounds very much like a problem I had with my 206 a couple of
months ago after some bush driving. The mechanic traced it to a
lose wire that picks up a signal from the fly wheel (ignition?).
Free fix and all is well again.

Cheers,
Julian


--
Julian Mattay, email: julian x mattay z csiro x au
(where x -> dot, z -> at)
Local IT Bloke
CSIRO, Forestry and Forest Products Ph: +61 8 8721 8118
Mt Gambier, South Australia, Australia Fax: +61 8 8723 9058

 

LOL !

 

Thanks for all your comments. I am getting the car looked at on 30
August as that is the ealiest an "electrician" in the NON-PEUGEOT
garage I take it to is available. I will keep people informed.In the
meantime, the problem still persists.

 

A possible problem will be whether your garage can read the system. But
I suppose that the industry may have addressed this - the number of
firms making management systems cannot be great - I think Peugeot use a
Bosch system. No doubt other manufacturers do too.

Also does anyone know about the capacity of the system to store fault
reports?

 

bosch and sagem, and both work with OBD2 codes, get a laptop ( and
interface) and you might find the general codes, get a diag 2000 and
you find em all, since some are proprietary pug codes

OBD2 consists of four digit number codes, if stored in the most
inefficient way ( 8 bits verses 3 per code) one could store 8000 codes
in as little a 8 Kb memory.
the Bosch systems based on the siemens SAB 80C537 family have 64Kb
flash memory in them which is partly used for the software image.
typical the image would be something like 32Kb, one would have the
possibility to store 32000 codes. however codes alone don't say much,
driving speed, oil pressure, engine rpm, etc has to be stored as well
along with the obd code.

perhaps GT has a more conclusive answer to it

Grrzz

Marc

 

Hi,

Not about the hardware involved as I guess you said it all, and far beyond
my knowledge about ECUs chips & capabilities (don't lie, you're also an
electronic engineer, isn't it ?).

Damn, yet another i8080 compatible ;-) BTW, sure it's a Siemens and not an
Infineon ?

That's what is called a frozen frame, and absolutely necessary for
diagnostics.

The OBD-2 protocol (sometimes called EOBD) was mainly used on US specs (see
SAE), works with 5 protocols which depends on the car manufacturer (grrrr).
It involves the PWM and VPWM protocols (for example Ford & GM), ISO9141-2
(mostly European & Asian manufacturers) and KWP2000 (derivated from
ISO9141-2). The fifth protocol is CAN, which comes step by step into diag
systems.

The codes are transmitted into the EOBD plug (defined into SAE-J1962 IIRC,
damn US$45 to get the connector's specs) following the ASCII codes. Good.

Not sure. According to the documents I have here, the format of an error
code following EOBD is 5 bytes long, and made like this :
<Type><SAE><E_type><E_code>, where
<Type> is the type of error ([P]owertrain, ody [C]hassis or U (network)),
<SAE> equals 0 if defined by SAE* (standard code, you can find lists all
along the Web), 1 or 2 for manufacturer code which complies with SAE
directives, 3 for future use, or 8 if defined by the manufacturer (less
fun),
<E_type> is the error type, from 1 to 8,
<E_code> is the error code.

* Not only SAE, also ISO 15031-6.

The good point is the presence of 8 kinds of informations you'll be able to
see with the diag interface :
- 01 actual data
- 02 frozen frames
- 03 error codes
- 04 erase stored errors
- 05 Lambda probes self check status
- 06 Other systems self check status which are not constantly monitored
- 07 Constantly-monitored systems self check status
- 08 Special control mode
- 09 Vehicle information (serial number (VIN), software version,...).

So you'll be able to source some errors (not all) thru the diag interface
using a (laptop)PC, interface and software. There is an interresting article
about this in this summer's french edition of Elektor (perhaps Elektuur in
NL).

I guess it's possible to see what's happening on such a fail, considering it
seems to be EFI / ignition related, so should be read by a non-Pug module.
The engine management light proves there's a fail which has been detected,
so at least a frozen frame must be present.

Here ends my opinions about the diag system, and if there's some luck to get
the error code. I tried to be as complete as possible, and I guess it is
easy to understand.

HTH,
G.T

205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com

 

uhh uhmm an audio engineer .... does that count?

nope it had the same damn name as my cell phone, siemens.....
btw it was in a volvo V series, cooked, i interchanged it for a friend
of mine who had his car sitting on the driveway as the volvo dealer
was not able to pick it up
i opened the ECU and came across very familiar smell, that one from
blown capacitors in a power amp. i changed the capacitors as they
where blown but no luck there and for the rest the thing is all SMD
three layer so no chance in hell repairing it.
It was expensive! hell 700 euros for a computer that has little more
capabilities than a casiofx4000p (the one we had at school you
remember)

that was the very term i was looking for

you can get a complete connector for that price!!

this of any help?

http://obddiagnostics.com/DataSheet.pdf

its also where one could obtain an interface, and some free software
to read out the codes

yup Elektuur, i don't have it but a drinking buddy still reads it, got
some nice articles from time to time.
not sure if the items synchronise with the french edition.

hope you get some better wether in Nievre ( that is the region your
right?) amsterdam is al damn day rain...

cheers

Marc

 

Hi,

Errrr.... No. Of course not, but according to the description you gave about
these µCs you cannot hide you have some knowledge about this kind of stuff

I just ask it 'cause they turned their semiconductor division into an
independant company one or two years ago.

I guess we both know this smell - not a good sign :-/

SMDs are brilliant for space saving and fast transient / noise filtering,
but a nightmare to unsolder / resolder properly. I once built an SMD-based
board (not my choice), kind of prototype... Never ever

ECUs are so expensive I sometimes wonder if they're made of gold. And, no, I
can't remember the FX4000 as I'm a bit too young (but I saw some 9600's
instead, and had to cope with a Graph25 during 4 years. Never ever, next
time I'll go for a TI or a HP).

Sure. I still haven't understood why these guys (I could write the same
about the french standards institude, the AFNOR) ask to pay so much to get
some specs.

Not really as I already collected so much similar stuff when I was looking
for some documents about EOBD. Thanks anyway.

Neither do I, but I guess this article has been or will be published soon
into Elektuur. BTW, have you seen the valve amp based on EL-156 ?

Almost my area, indeed I'm just 2km away from northern Nièvre.
Well, not really a great weather these days. Would be wonderful if it was on
April or May, not on August, 15th.

Regards,
G.T

205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com

 

I was originally trained as a navigator ( ships unfortunately not
rally cars) and later on i became a environmental engineer (Ba) but
given the lack of adventure i picked up the job i did to earn my way
through school and got back in to audio engineering and design. also
worked at a instrumental amplification manufacturer, making PCB
layouts and proto's from rough design ( design engineer was a bit of
an "artist")

i know some of electronics out of interest and necessity, when i come
across an item i don't know ( like most of these 8080 compatible
stuff) there is mostly a white paper on it and i take it from there

aha there you have it, the car is three years old, but i guess they
wont re badge the siemens stock for infinion

aha the 9600 was the one we could not afford back then.....

yup it was in the march issue, unfortunately original telefunken
tubes are not manufactured any more so you have to make do with its
chinese "equivalent" i saw some original telefunken EL-156 on ebay for
500 euro a pair......


looked it up and yes they had the obd article in the July /august
number, they even sell a complete analyze kit for 74 euro's and a
cable for 39 euro's put your laptop on get some software and ruin your
car!

weather is ...finally.... clearing up here, i heard it has been quite
bad in mid France, my mom had some bad roof damage after a severe
thunder and rainstorm.
all hell has broken loose here in amsterdam as i just learn two trains
have been derailed on the west side of amsterdam central station,
i'm trying to get some live footage from the helicopter via a PI6alk
repeater.

btw i live just east from central station

cheers

Marc

 

Hi,

A design engineer is still a kind of an artist, but his work has a use and
he has to cope with some specs

Yeah, they're all a bit specific, and without the datasheet you'd lose your
mind if you ever tried to know them all... Pretty amazing how many
8080-compatible µP there are down here, esp. when you state there are no
Moto's 68xx-compatible (or so few it doesn't matter).

Sure, but the originally Siemens-badged products could well turn into
Infineon with stock rotations.

500EUR for a pair of EL-156 seems expensive to me
One thing I never understood is how a valve amp works*. Keep in mind I am
not specialized into audio systems, and of course having passed the exam in
2003 involves you don't see valve systems. You can tell I'm a kind of
silicon-addict.
* Instead I've of course heard some nice Marshall valve amps (and I even was
a bit surprised of the sound provided by a ValveState).

I don't have the prices for France, moreover I'm a bit lazy to look for them
on the Web, but it doesn't seem too expensive to me. The ass'y seems pretty
easy to me, as there are no SMD's. The software should be found as some
shareware or freeware, and for the OP I guess any of them should do the
trick, indeed.

True, here it keeps cloudy since yesterday. We also had some severe storms
here, but with no big damage. It was pretty violent 20km away
(Coulanges-la-Vineuse), where some mobilhomes rolled over. One of them even
flew 100m before stopping into a tree, 3m above the floor !
Anyway Burgundy has a feature of violent thunder, possibly because of the
proximity of Morvan, and I'm pretty sure it was pretty violent in Autun
(although I had no specific information about this area).

Damn that's a good week for journalists after the airplaine being crashed
yesterday in Greece (I've heard it was due to a pressurization fail
problem). Well, if it was near the station they were not running fast, so we
could expect there are not many people badly injured.

It doesn't make a difference to me, as I never went to Amsterdam

Regards,

 

its a fairly simple triode based design and for its linearity it has
no need for a feedback cirquit,so that keeps it even more simple.
there is a good deal of info on the web if you survey for triode and
pentode amplifiers, i'm sure you'll find something of your interest.

i don't use valve amps in my work, as they don't take the abuse very
well, and getting an output staged up to 2 KW is an art in itself when
using valves

arg, i hate marshals, as their keepers always turn them up big time
and ruin my mix...

fortunately no people injured, but it is the third train that derails
in that particular stretch in four months time......

nice enough city but don't bring your car....

cheers

Marc

 

Hi,

I have to add I didn't spent many time on trying to understand how it works,
as I'm not really interested about the valve amps.

Possibly. I should have a look, but valves are more exotic than useful for
the amplifiers I need

True. Plus the need of high voltage, plus the fact they usually have poor
THD results due to the harmonics generation / reinjection. I'm convinced
there's a way to get far better results with solid-state, silicon-based
amplifiers. For low power, I guess I'd be tempted by some monolithic
integrated amps, like the NS's LM3886T, which is able of 38W avg output
through 8ohms with a THD of 0,03%.
A nice cascade of MOS must be fun, too, even if they're a bit terrible to
linearize (I don't know if adding 1/2 VDS over gate is applicable here).
Now, allowing output stages up to 2kW isn't the same work at all, and is far
over integrated amplifiers limits ;-)

That's because of the user, not the amplifier itself. I guess it gives nice
sound for electric guitars, and as I do listen to bands like AC/DC over 10
years now I'm sure their sound would be pretty different if they were using
another brand.

Still, these amplifiers are a bit of mystery : I talked with one of my
electronics teachers about these, he told me he had a full-valve Marschall
schematic when he tried to build one for his son, he told me that was just
good old valve technology (I assume it was an A-class) with nothing special,
but agreed with me they must have something particular to blow that sound.

Mmmmm so it mustn't be the driver's fault then... Perhaps a set of worn
rails ? I remember of a train incident some years ago in UK for this reason.

I've heard of that, moreover petrol seems even more expensive than in France
(where it isn't cheap at all). I knew some guys which used to spend vacation
in Amsterdam, but they were mainly interested by what you can't do in
France* (see my point ?), not by the canals (spelling ?) themselves - which
is the thing I may be interested in.
* The funny point is their conclusion often is "you see mate, this is a
country where you are freeer than in France". Possibly they don't know their
cell phones performs PLU's 60 times an hour

Still, I certainly have fun on a trip to Holland, Amsterdam's canals &
locks, Eindhoven's companies musems...

Regards,
G.T

205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com

 

You are indeed correct that I need to take it to a Peugeot dealer,
unless anyone knows of a good Peugeot specialist that does not charge
dealership prices. It goes in on 30 August. If it is the MAP it could
be (including diagnostics, part and labour) £250 or so.

I have noticed the car is cutting out more frequently now.