406 Running unevenly

Discussion in 'Peugeot 406' started by lawrenceryz, Aug 10, 2005.

  1. lawrenceryz

    lawrenceryz Guest

    I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have been driving it
    on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and the car will intermittently
    "kick" or "jolt" as if it loses power for a split second. It will then
    continue relatively smoothly and the problem may happen again every few
    minutes.

    On one occassion it the engine has stalled when I have come to a set of
    traffic lights, on another occassion the orange engine management light
    has illuminated. I have also had a situation where the car 'splutters'
    i.e I put my foot on the accelerator and it barely responds and then
    power eventually is produced.

    Other reports of the same problem indicate either MAP sensors or spark
    plugs.

    I assume an error would be reported by the engine management system if
    it was hooked up to a diagnostic computer but I am hesitant about being
    taken for a ride at a Peugeot dealer.

    Can anyone assist ?
     
    lawrenceryz, Aug 10, 2005
    #1
  2. lawrenceryz

    Nom Guest

    Sounds like MAP sensor to me. Firstly, check ALL the pipework for leaks - I
    had a split in the vacuum pipe to my MAP sensor, and it caused similar
    issues. If that doesn't sort it, then replace the sensor - they aren't
    particularly expensive.
    No idea where it is on yours - mine was a 2.0 8v
     
    Nom, Aug 10, 2005
    #2
  3. lawrenceryz

    Marc Guest


    or it might be just as simple as a clogged up fuel filter....
     
    Marc, Aug 10, 2005
    #3
  4. lawrenceryz

    Ken Guest

    I had a problem like this years ago and the mob who look after the
    vehicle found some error reports stored in the system. These pointed to
    a faulty sensor - I forget what it sensed - anyway they fixed the
    problem. I think it was a temp sensor.
     
    Ken, Aug 10, 2005
    #4
  5. lawrenceryz

    Nom Guest

    Surely that would never happen though, unless the car has never been
    serviced ?
     
    Nom, Aug 10, 2005
    #5
  6. Had same kind of problem.
    Turned out to be the ignition coils...

    Aat
     
    Aat van den Bos, Aug 10, 2005
    #6
  7. lawrenceryz

    Marc Guest

    or you have contaminated the fuel tank in east afganistan with a
    diesel/chemical waste substance.....
     
    Marc, Aug 10, 2005
    #7
  8. Sounds very much like a problem I had with my 206 a couple of
    months ago after some bush driving. The mechanic traced it to a
    lose wire that picks up a signal from the fly wheel (ignition?).
    Free fix and all is well again.

    Cheers,
    Julian


    --
    Julian Mattay, email: julian x mattay z csiro x au
    (where x -> dot, z -> at)
    Local IT Bloke
    CSIRO, Forestry and Forest Products Ph: +61 8 8721 8118
    Mt Gambier, South Australia, Australia Fax: +61 8 8723 9058
     
    Julian Mattay, Aug 11, 2005
    #8
  9. lawrenceryz

    Nom Guest

    LOL !
     
    Nom, Aug 11, 2005
    #9
  10. lawrenceryz

    lawrenceryz Guest

    Thanks for all your comments. I am getting the car looked at on 30
    August as that is the ealiest an "electrician" in the NON-PEUGEOT
    garage I take it to is available. I will keep people informed.In the
    meantime, the problem still persists.
     
    lawrenceryz, Aug 14, 2005
    #10
  11. lawrenceryz

    Ken Guest

    A possible problem will be whether your garage can read the system. But
    I suppose that the industry may have addressed this - the number of
    firms making management systems cannot be great - I think Peugeot use a
    Bosch system. No doubt other manufacturers do too.

    Also does anyone know about the capacity of the system to store fault
    reports?
     
    Ken, Aug 14, 2005
    #11
  12. lawrenceryz

    Marc Guest

    bosch and sagem, and both work with OBD2 codes, get a laptop ( and
    interface) and you might find the general codes, get a diag 2000 and
    you find em all, since some are proprietary pug codes
    OBD2 consists of four digit number codes, if stored in the most
    inefficient way ( 8 bits verses 3 per code) one could store 8000 codes
    in as little a 8 Kb memory.
    the Bosch systems based on the siemens SAB 80C537 family have 64Kb
    flash memory in them which is partly used for the software image.
    typical the image would be something like 32Kb, one would have the
    possibility to store 32000 codes. however codes alone don't say much,
    driving speed, oil pressure, engine rpm, etc has to be stored as well
    along with the obd code.

    perhaps GT has a more conclusive answer to it

    Grrzz

    Marc
     
    Marc, Aug 14, 2005
    #12
  13. lawrenceryz

    G.T Guest

    Hi,
    Not about the hardware involved as I guess you said it all, and far beyond
    my knowledge about ECUs chips & capabilities (don't lie, you're also an
    electronic engineer, isn't it ?).
    Damn, yet another i8080 compatible ;-) BTW, sure it's a Siemens and not an
    Infineon ?
    That's what is called a frozen frame, and absolutely necessary for
    diagnostics.

    The OBD-2 protocol (sometimes called EOBD) was mainly used on US specs (see
    SAE), works with 5 protocols which depends on the car manufacturer (grrrr).
    It involves the PWM and VPWM protocols (for example Ford & GM), ISO9141-2
    (mostly European & Asian manufacturers) and KWP2000 (derivated from
    ISO9141-2). The fifth protocol is CAN, which comes step by step into diag
    systems.

    The codes are transmitted into the EOBD plug (defined into SAE-J1962 IIRC,
    damn US$45 to get the connector's specs) following the ASCII codes. Good.
    Not sure. According to the documents I have here, the format of an error
    code following EOBD is 5 bytes long, and made like this :
    <Type><SAE><E_type><E_code>, where
    <Type> is the type of error ([P]owertrain, ody [C]hassis or U (network)),
    <SAE> equals 0 if defined by SAE* (standard code, you can find lists all
    along the Web), 1 or 2 for manufacturer code which complies with SAE
    directives, 3 for future use, or 8 if defined by the manufacturer (less
    fun),
    <E_type> is the error type, from 1 to 8,
    <E_code> is the error code.

    * Not only SAE, also ISO 15031-6.

    The good point is the presence of 8 kinds of informations you'll be able to
    see with the diag interface :
    - 01 actual data
    - 02 frozen frames
    - 03 error codes
    - 04 erase stored errors
    - 05 Lambda probes self check status
    - 06 Other systems self check status which are not constantly monitored
    - 07 Constantly-monitored systems self check status
    - 08 Special control mode
    - 09 Vehicle information (serial number (VIN), software version,...).

    So you'll be able to source some errors (not all) thru the diag interface
    using a (laptop)PC, interface and software. There is an interresting article
    about this in this summer's french edition of Elektor (perhaps Elektuur in
    NL).

    I guess it's possible to see what's happening on such a fail, considering it
    seems to be EFI / ignition related, so should be read by a non-Pug module.
    The engine management light proves there's a fail which has been detected,
    so at least a frozen frame must be present.

    Here ends my opinions about the diag system, and if there's some luck to get
    the error code. I tried to be as complete as possible, and I guess it is
    easy to understand.

    HTH,
    G.T

    205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com
     
    G.T, Aug 14, 2005
    #13
  14. lawrenceryz

    Marc Guest

    uhh uhmm an audio engineer .... does that count?

    nope it had the same damn name as my cell phone, siemens.....
    btw it was in a volvo V series, cooked, i interchanged it for a friend
    of mine who had his car sitting on the driveway as the volvo dealer
    was not able to pick it up
    i opened the ECU and came across very familiar smell, that one from
    blown capacitors in a power amp. i changed the capacitors as they
    where blown but no luck there and for the rest the thing is all SMD
    three layer so no chance in hell repairing it.
    It was expensive! hell 700 euros for a computer that has little more
    capabilities than a casiofx4000p (the one we had at school you
    remember)
    that was the very term i was looking for
    you can get a complete connector for that price!!

    this of any help?

    http://obddiagnostics.com/DataSheet.pdf

    its also where one could obtain an interface, and some free software
    to read out the codes




    yup Elektuur, i don't have it but a drinking buddy still reads it, got
    some nice articles from time to time.
    not sure if the items synchronise with the french edition.
    hope you get some better wether in Nievre ( that is the region your
    right?) amsterdam is al damn day rain...

    cheers

    Marc
     
    Marc, Aug 14, 2005
    #14
  15. lawrenceryz

    G.T Guest

    Hi,
    Errrr.... No. Of course not, but according to the description you gave about
    these µCs you cannot hide you have some knowledge about this kind of stuff
    :)
    I just ask it 'cause they turned their semiconductor division into an
    independant company one or two years ago.
    I guess we both know this smell - not a good sign :-/
    SMDs are brilliant for space saving and fast transient / noise filtering,
    but a nightmare to unsolder / resolder properly. I once built an SMD-based
    board (not my choice), kind of prototype... Never ever :)
    ECUs are so expensive I sometimes wonder if they're made of gold. And, no, I
    can't remember the FX4000 as I'm a bit too young (but I saw some 9600's
    instead, and had to cope with a Graph25 during 4 years. Never ever, next
    time I'll go for a TI or a HP).
    Sure. I still haven't understood why these guys (I could write the same
    about the french standards institude, the AFNOR) ask to pay so much to get
    some specs.
    Not really as I already collected so much similar stuff when I was looking
    for some documents about EOBD. Thanks anyway.
    Neither do I, but I guess this article has been or will be published soon
    into Elektuur. BTW, have you seen the valve amp based on EL-156 ? :)
    Almost my area, indeed I'm just 2km away from northern Nièvre.
    Well, not really a great weather these days. Would be wonderful if it was on
    April or May, not on August, 15th.

    Regards,
    G.T

    205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com
     
    G.T, Aug 14, 2005
    #15
  16. lawrenceryz

    Marc Guest

    I was originally trained as a navigator ( ships unfortunately not
    rally cars) and later on i became a environmental engineer (Ba) but
    given the lack of adventure i picked up the job i did to earn my way
    through school and got back in to audio engineering and design. also
    worked at a instrumental amplification manufacturer, making PCB
    layouts and proto's from rough design ( design engineer was a bit of
    an "artist")

    i know some of electronics out of interest and necessity, when i come
    across an item i don't know ( like most of these 8080 compatible
    stuff) there is mostly a white paper on it and i take it from there
    aha there you have it, the car is three years old, but i guess they
    wont re badge the siemens stock for infinion
    aha the 9600 was the one we could not afford back then.....
    yup it was in the march issue, unfortunately original telefunken
    tubes are not manufactured any more so you have to make do with its
    chinese "equivalent" i saw some original telefunken EL-156 on ebay for
    500 euro a pair......


    looked it up and yes they had the obd article in the July /august
    number, they even sell a complete analyze kit for 74 euro's and a
    cable for 39 euro's put your laptop on get some software and ruin your
    car! ;)
    weather is ...finally.... clearing up here, i heard it has been quite
    bad in mid France, my mom had some bad roof damage after a severe
    thunder and rainstorm.
    all hell has broken loose here in amsterdam as i just learn two trains
    have been derailed on the west side of amsterdam central station,
    i'm trying to get some live footage from the helicopter via a PI6alk
    repeater.

    btw i live just east from central station

    cheers

    Marc
     
    Marc, Aug 15, 2005
    #16
  17. lawrenceryz

    G.T Guest

    Hi,
    A design engineer is still a kind of an artist, but his work has a use and
    he has to cope with some specs :)
    Yeah, they're all a bit specific, and without the datasheet you'd lose your
    mind if you ever tried to know them all... Pretty amazing how many
    8080-compatible µP there are down here, esp. when you state there are no
    Moto's 68xx-compatible (or so few it doesn't matter).
    Sure, but the originally Siemens-badged products could well turn into
    Infineon with stock rotations.
    500EUR for a pair of EL-156 seems expensive to me :)
    One thing I never understood is how a valve amp works*. Keep in mind I am
    not specialized into audio systems, and of course having passed the exam in
    2003 involves you don't see valve systems. You can tell I'm a kind of
    silicon-addict.
    * Instead I've of course heard some nice Marshall valve amps (and I even was
    a bit surprised of the sound provided by a ValveState).
    I don't have the prices for France, moreover I'm a bit lazy to look for them
    on the Web, but it doesn't seem too expensive to me. The ass'y seems pretty
    easy to me, as there are no SMD's. The software should be found as some
    shareware or freeware, and for the OP I guess any of them should do the
    trick, indeed.
    True, here it keeps cloudy since yesterday. We also had some severe storms
    here, but with no big damage. It was pretty violent 20km away
    (Coulanges-la-Vineuse), where some mobilhomes rolled over. One of them even
    flew 100m before stopping into a tree, 3m above the floor !
    Anyway Burgundy has a feature of violent thunder, possibly because of the
    proximity of Morvan, and I'm pretty sure it was pretty violent in Autun
    (although I had no specific information about this area).
    Damn that's a good week for journalists after the airplaine being crashed
    yesterday in Greece (I've heard it was due to a pressurization fail
    problem). Well, if it was near the station they were not running fast, so we
    could expect there are not many people badly injured.
    It doesn't make a difference to me, as I never went to Amsterdam :)

    Regards,
     
    G.T, Aug 15, 2005
    #17
  18. lawrenceryz

    Marc Guest

    its a fairly simple triode based design and for its linearity it has
    no need for a feedback cirquit,so that keeps it even more simple.
    there is a good deal of info on the web if you survey for triode and
    pentode amplifiers, i'm sure you'll find something of your interest.

    i don't use valve amps in my work, as they don't take the abuse very
    well, and getting an output staged up to 2 KW is an art in itself when
    using valves
    arg, i hate marshals, as their keepers always turn them up big time
    and ruin my mix...
    fortunately no people injured, but it is the third train that derails
    in that particular stretch in four months time......
    nice enough city but don't bring your car....

    cheers

    Marc
     
    Marc, Aug 15, 2005
    #18
  19. lawrenceryz

    G.T Guest

    Hi,
    I have to add I didn't spent many time on trying to understand how it works,
    as I'm not really interested about the valve amps.
    Possibly. I should have a look, but valves are more exotic than useful for
    the amplifiers I need :)
    True. Plus the need of high voltage, plus the fact they usually have poor
    THD results due to the harmonics generation / reinjection. I'm convinced
    there's a way to get far better results with solid-state, silicon-based
    amplifiers. For low power, I guess I'd be tempted by some monolithic
    integrated amps, like the NS's LM3886T, which is able of 38W avg output
    through 8ohms with a THD of 0,03%.
    A nice cascade of MOS must be fun, too, even if they're a bit terrible to
    linearize (I don't know if adding 1/2 VDS over gate is applicable here).
    Now, allowing output stages up to 2kW isn't the same work at all, and is far
    over integrated amplifiers limits ;-)
    That's because of the user, not the amplifier itself. I guess it gives nice
    sound for electric guitars, and as I do listen to bands like AC/DC over 10
    years now I'm sure their sound would be pretty different if they were using
    another brand.

    Still, these amplifiers are a bit of mystery : I talked with one of my
    electronics teachers about these, he told me he had a full-valve Marschall
    schematic when he tried to build one for his son, he told me that was just
    good old valve technology (I assume it was an A-class) with nothing special,
    but agreed with me they must have something particular to blow that sound.
    Mmmmm so it mustn't be the driver's fault then... Perhaps a set of worn
    rails ? I remember of a train incident some years ago in UK for this reason.
    I've heard of that, moreover petrol seems even more expensive than in France
    (where it isn't cheap at all). I knew some guys which used to spend vacation
    in Amsterdam, but they were mainly interested by what you can't do in
    France* (see my point ?), not by the canals (spelling ?) themselves - which
    is the thing I may be interested in.
    * The funny point is their conclusion often is "you see mate, this is a
    country where you are freeer than in France". Possibly they don't know their
    cell phones performs PLU's 60 times an hour :)

    Still, I certainly have fun on a trip to Holland, Amsterdam's canals &
    locks, Eindhoven's companies musems...

    Regards,
    G.T

    205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com
     
    G.T, Aug 16, 2005
    #19
  20. lawrenceryz

    lawrenceryz Guest

    You are indeed correct that I need to take it to a Peugeot dealer,
    unless anyone knows of a good Peugeot specialist that does not charge
    dealership prices. It goes in on 30 August. If it is the MAP it could
    be (including diagnostics, part and labour) £250 or so.

    I have noticed the car is cutting out more frequently now.
     
    lawrenceryz, Aug 23, 2005
    #20
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