dumb

Hi guys,
Potentially dumb question here, but bear with me. I'm a newbie at the
car-buying business, at least in the UK.

I've been looking at a Pug 306 GTi. Nice car. R reg, with the leather/suede
interior (not the leather/curtain fabric which is more option), at a good
price. Only 78k miles.

Got it RAC checked, he came back with a list of items:
The rear nearside wing has been replaced, the offside has been repaired
The clutch cable sticks a little.
Rear tyres need replacing
Rear silencer mounting needs rewelding
Brake compensation valve is sticking
Aux drive belt needs changing, as does cam belt
a/c needs regassing - may have corroded pipes (need to take it to a
specialist)

Whaddaya reckon - is this enough to ditch the car? Given that it's a very
good price not counting these problems...

Fixing them would probably bring it up to about the going rate, I guess.

Oh, and what's the nearside?

Cheers
Nick

 

Personally I'd wak away. Sounds like it's been in a prang to me...
There must be other's out there and it's worth sitting tight to get a good
'un I reckon.

 

My 155 has had at least one panel replaced, and there's evidence of a
skim of filler on the offside rear arch. I was happy to buy it like
that, but only because it was cheap. By cheap I mean less than £700. I
take it this car is going to be a quite a lot more than that.....

In which case I really wouldn't bother - there's plenty of them around,
so hold out for a decent one.

Quite easy to fix, but if you're not familiar with working on cars, then
you'd be paying someone an hour to do it.

There's a couple of hundred quid urgently needs spending for a pair of
decent tyres - believe me, you don't want cheap budgets on something
that's as tail happy as a 306.

Replacing. £50 plus fitting at a minimum.

Might need replacing - yet more money to spend. Again, as a tail happy
FWD car, this is something you want to be working properly.

Ouch. You're looking at at least £200 for this - close on £500 from a
main dealer.

Avoid! - Air Con problems are expensive enough to write off older cars -
a friend very nearly scrapped a very tidy, but elderly Alfa 164 V6 Super
Lusso due to a knackered aircon pump £700 to replace! (I found him a
used pump for £50, which saved the car)

For it to be a good price, it would have to be going for £500. And I'm
sure it's not, so yes, walk away.

You guessed wrong!

Passenger side on a RHD British car.

 

Cheers guys - very helpful. I had a quote for changing the cambelt,
regassing the a/c (assuming that was the only problem with the a/c....) and
changing the front brake pads. That was going to be £400 from an independent
garage, £700 from a Pug garage. The seller was prepared to go to £3650 -
going rate is closer to £4.5- 5k. But to be honest it's not just about the
money - it's the hassle too!

OTOH, most pugs around that age (97 R) are going to need some work, I guess.

Anyway, the seller just called me - I essentially said I wanted to think
about it, he got a bit miffed. Still, no worries - he's not doing me a
favour selling me a car, just like I'm not actually saving money by buying a
cheap knackered car. It's still money going to someone else....

But thanks for the replies - like I said, very helpful
Cheers
Nick

 

In

Have you ever actually driven a 306? "Tail happy" is not how I'd describe
them.

Personally, I'd rate a 306 GTi6 as the second best handling small / medium
hatchback I've ever driven. The list of which includes the 106 Rallye, 106
GTi, 205 GTi, 309 GTi, 5 Turbo, RS2000, Escort Cosworth, Alfa 145
Cloverleaf, Golf GTi, Golf VR6, Golf VR6 Synchro, Ka, Alfasud, Golf Rallye,
Corrado VR6, Polo 16v, Nissan Sunny GTi-R, Bravo HGT....

My top 10 is as follows...

1st Lancia Delta Integrale Evo
2nd Peugeot 306 GTi6
3rd Lancia Delta Integrale 16v
4th Lancia Delta Integrale 8v
5th Lancia Delta HF 4x4
6th Ford Ka
7th Ford Escort Cosworth
8th VW Golf GTi Mk2 8v
9th Nisaan Sunny GTiR
10th Peugeot 205 GTi 1.9



The side nearest to the kerb when driving normally.

HTH
--
Pete M

Ford Capri - Mercedes 500 SEL - Sierra XR4x4
COSOC #5
Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain

 

Never driven a 306, no. Driven a 205 and 309 (both GTIs) and found them
to be easily provoked at the rear end - just like the Alfas and Fiats
have been.

My 155 is currently riding on NCT5s on the front and cheapo Chinese
tyres on the back, and it's bloody lethal if you don't keep the power on
through quick bends - especially on damp / wet roads.

I always thought the 306 was similar in handling terms to the 205/309
chassis? - 106 certainly maintains this traditional Pug trait.

 

In

306 has passive rear steer, and it works. You can hurl a 306 at a corner at
unfeasible speeds and when you /really/ take the piss with it the rear will
do a little shift, nothing major, just something to say "Oi, ang on a
minute...you're being a bit daft now", then settle again. They're throttle
steerable, sure, but they don't bite back like a 205 GTi unless you drive
like an utter tw@.

I proved to a colleague of mine a few years back that a 306 1.4 is as quick
on Cheshire back roads as a Focus Zetec 2.0. We both used to drive this
certain 15 mile stretch on a nightly basis as part of work [1] (delivering
hire cars) and although I could get away from him in an identical Focus if I
*really* tried, the power deficit of the 306 meant things were seriously in
his favour. I had to work quite hard in the 306 to keep ahead of him, but I
could.. just. When we reached our destination he admitted he'd never had to
work as hard to keep up with me in his life. The Focus could reel me in on
the straights, but "That fucking Peugeot just didn't slow down at all for
corners. I could see the stickers on the back shocks on some of the bends,
and I was doing 100+..."

They're shite when the suspension is tired though....

[1] For those who're wondering, it was somewhere between Congleton and
Warrington. I'll let you guess the rest...


--
Pete M

Ford Capri - Mercedes 500 SEL - Sierra XR4x4
COSOC #5
Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain

 

That's the thing - with a rear end that's working so hard, it needs good
tyres - which was sort of my point. You'd be looking at the thick end of
£200 to sort that, or I reckon the handling would fall apart very
rapidly.

IYSWIM.

 

In

Nice theory, but as OE they were fitted with some shite like Michelin Pilot
Teflon...


--
Pete M

Ford Capri - Mercedes 500 SEL - Sierra XR4x4
COSOC #5
Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain

 

NCT5s are shite - I know got four on my Volvo. Never again.

Going back to Contis next time, have PremiumContact on the Zafira, currently
shwing 17k miles and loads of life left, had SportContact2 on the Volvo,
short life but much more grip and more progressive on the limit than the
NCT5s.

 

In

I had Conti Aqua Contacts on my Mk5 RS2000. Great at wet cornering, but no
actual traction. Swapped 'em for Avon something or others and they were
brilliant. Got Avon something or others on the Sierra and they're truly
superb. Quiet, grippy, and just generally excellent. Seem to last well too.
I've put 3500 miles on the Sierra and the tyres are lasting well.


--
Pete M

Ford Capri - Mercedes 500 SEL - Sierra XR4x4
COSOC #5
Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britaina

 

Seem to suit the 155 for some reason, although the old NCT3s were shite
on a 33.

I'll only have 6 months maximum of these on the mileage I'm doing
anyway.

I wanted something cheaper than P6000s and longer lasting than my
favoured Yokos.

These were cheap enough for me to chance it.

Not great, but not bad, although they do the comedy squeel thing quite
well.

 

Neither would I, based on owning an XSI for several years. It is
certainly steerable on the throttle, much more so than some other cars,
and I dare say that one could lose it by lifting off clumsily. Having
said that, there was a time or two when I had to break much deeper into
a misjudged corner than I would consider prudent, and it did nothing
untoward. It was no more tail happy than the 309 I had before it.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the journalists are doing when they
describe lift off oversteer as a problem in FWD hatches; apparently the
Civic Type-R is also "snappy", but I'd describe it as progressive. Less
so than the 306, but still linear and predictable. Are they describing
what happens if you go in with massively excess entry speed and jump off
the throttle? Because in that situation you are going to go off one way
or another, be it forwards, sideways or backwards.

I suppose what I mean is turning in at close to the limit of grip,
accelerating until it starts to understeer and then lifting off and
adjusting the attitude with the throttle.

 

This kind of thing would definitely put me off a car, though.

I love FWD cars that have a decent amount of lift-off oversteer
engineered into the chassis.

My Cinq. was a prime example after it had been lowered - in the wet it
was incredibly tail-happy. I spent many a happy hour playing with it on
wet roundabouts - completely sideways 4 wheel drifts were available on
tap

I do tend to be quite agressive with a car, though, and definitely try
and provoke such behaviour regularly

 

There's a couple of hundred quid urgently needs spending for a pair of

Tail happy? Certainly not how i'd describe a 306 or a 205 - i know for a
fact that unless I was driving very erratically (rapid side-to-side camber
changing corners) there was no chance of me losing either ive driven - it
was always the same old dull FWD understeer.

J

 

Hi,

Neither would I. I've driven 205s as different as XR, Diesels and TDs, and I
have to admit it's not tail happy. Tends to understeer, excepted for the
DTurbo which has a brilliant throttle cornering aptitude.
The 405 *had* a happy tail, once above the limits (done it with Dunlop SP200
at front and Pirelli P600 at back), but the limits are so far away you just
can't reach them on a normal drive.

I had to push it far above reasonable driving.
It was some years ago on the last curve driving to the Magny-Cours circuit,
big left corner with a 60KPH speed limit. Entered the corner @70KPH on a wet
road, pissed of 'cause of the BMW stuck to my ass, the car started to
oversteer, far easy control. Out of the curve I was above 85KPH, the BMW was
far back, and kept on full throttle up to 110KPH. Of course I was in 3rd
gear, and things would possibly have been different in 5th.
Of course I was driving my mum's '88 405 SRi, with Mk1 rear passive
steering. Damn good handling. Once you've driven up to the limits (and I
made it several times), you don't want any other stuff than Pugs.

 

Got the RAC report back today. In the comments section it noted that it was
likely to need a lot of money to rectify these problems, and regular
investment in order to keep it in top condition.

So I ain't bothering...

Cheers
Nick

 

It does, the point is that it only does it when deliberately provoked,
which is how it should be, IMO. If I could get something with the
Civic's engine, gearbox and grip, and the 306's steering feel and
handling, I'd be a happy man.

 

That'll be the integra then!

 

There are worse cars out there, no doubt about that, but it sounds like the
sort of condition I trade them in in*, and no way would I buy anything I've
traded in, neglected, abused and just on the verge of needing tons of money
spent to avoid even bigger bills shortly after.

Walk away and find something better, if it sells in the meantime then it's no
real loss. HST, if the price is significantly under book, it may be a fair
price.


(* - except for the accident damage, which needn't be an issue.)


Apparently on date Fri, 6 Aug 2004 19:19:50 +0100, "Nick Drew"