Top Gear survey 2005 results - Peugeot do badly

The Top Gear owner's survey results are out, with 76,000 people having
submitted responses about the quality of their cars and the
manufacturers.

http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2005/11/stories/01/1.html

Peugeot hold the bottom two positions, for the 807 and 307 -
highlighting their rubbish reliability and complete lack of support from
the dealers and Peugeot.

The bottom 13 cars feature 4 Peugeots, 4 Renaults, 2 Citroens plus a
Merc, a Rover and a Fiat. The highest placing for Peugeot is 121st out
of 159 cars (Citroen managed 90). Peugeot must be feeling very proud.

Matt
(whose 807 is going back in for repairs _again_ on Monday - last time
they had it for three weeks, the time before it was four weeks - yet
Peugeot think this is a quite acceptable customer experience)

 

strange to see that cars with the same lump, ( psa which goes in
ford, citroen, etc) have different valuations in engine reliability.

also

how can you compare a honda s2000 to a Kia sedona?
and how a bout a PSA diesel that easily racks up 300.000 miles
compared to the high revving 320Bhp Impreza?

right, the equation goes false.

you seem to have no luck with your car and you are fully entitled to
spill your grieves about it, in fact i'd sue pug if they didn't sort
out the fault. Perhaps one should look into the workshop and see how
much
donze haired upper lip apprentices are walking arround there on your
expense trying to figure out what a car is in the first place.

 

It is about managing customer expectations - Skoda do well because an
average Skoda owner doesn't expect too much, so when the car is pretty
good they are happy. Audi do badly, because their owners expect
perfection so a few problems become more of an issue.
Peugeot are appalling because the cars are rubbish and they don't give a
damn.

This seems typical of the 807 ownership "experience", but Peugeot will
not accept that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the car,
despite my more than 20 repairs and close to 40 faults.

I've been assured that mine is being dealt with by the Master Tech - but
having spoken to him, he has admitted that he ended up getting another
807 alongside mine to compare how the cars work rather than knowing what
he was doing.

But it goes beyond the dealerships - Peugeot UK's customer care is
non-existent. When they eventually get around to talking to you (it took
over a month in my case), they refuse point blank to do anything other
than send the car back to the dealers who you are complaining about.
Ethical behaviour is not something they have heard of, looking after a
customer appears to be positively frowned upon. Did you know that in the
UK, once you get a "manager" assigned, you can't actually call and speak
to them? You have to request a call back, which they say will happen
within two working days (by which they mean that if you call on Monday
morning you cannot expect a call before the end of Wednesday - two
working days _after_ Monday). In my experience it can take a week to get
the call; if you try to complain that it hasn't arrived you are told by
front-line staff that they will place another request. If you sak to
escalate, you are told smugly to write a letter and someone may get
around to dealing with it in five days (which is also a hopelessly
optimistic target). They are rotten to the core, with apparently no
oversight from upper management and no way of escalating complaints. If
you try, you eventually get a condescending form letter from the person
you were complaining about, and nothing changes.

They have my £23K, now nobody at Peugeot gives a damn that in almost
three years I haven't had a fully working car. Yes, I'm bitter. Yes, I
feel ripped off. I've driven over 1,000 miles just taking the car
backwards and forwards to the dealer. I've spent over a full working
week doing so, when you add up the time taken to go each way and waiting
at the service desk. I hate to think how much time I've spent on the
phone to the ironically-named customer care team at Peugeot UK.

The problem is that most of the trouble has been intermittent faults -
if I get an independent engineer in to do a report and they don't occur
in the hour or so he spends on the car, I'm down a couple of hundred
pounds and still have nothing to prove the case.

I used to love my Pugs, the 106, 205, 306, 405 and 605s we've had (more
than one of many of these) were all excellent cars, bullet-proof
reliability and a lot of fun. I'd still heartily recommend any of these,
but the current crop of cars are best avoided at all costs.

Matt

 

I fully sympathize with you but I am a Ford Technician and to put it
as simply as I can YOU CAN`T FIX WHAT ISN`T BROKEN - if your vehicle
is ok at the time of test and by your own admission the faults are
intermittent how is the Peugeot technician going to know if he has
fixed your fault or not - also the diagnostic equipment isn`t in the
same league as a crystal ball - it only points you in the right
direction if your lucky and don`t forget your dealer didn`t make the
car they are just trying their best to put it right - I was on your
side of the counter last week with my Peugeot, taking it in for a
warranty job and found my local dealer very helpful and my car was
ready when they said it would be !


..On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:55:12 +0000, Matthew Haigh

 

I can accept that to a degree - but why should I be expected to live
with a car that is obviously rubbish and they cannot get right after
almost THREE YEARS? Are you saying it is OK for a customer to live with
intermittent faults?

A few examples:-

Even non-intermittent problems like the peeling of the chrome-style
coating from the door handles - the car went to two different dealers
FIVE TIMES before they managed to correctly fit the handles - in the
process badly chipping the paintwork around one of them and doing
something that ended up fouling the electric windows. How difficult can
that be?

Replacing one of the electric window mechanisms (in an earlier event
than the damaging due to replacing the door handles), they completely
destroyed the channel that the window sits in (it is a metal channel,
they used a screwdriver to bend it back), because they didn't have a
clue how to remove it. The car was given back to me like that.

The oil level sensor (electronic dipstick) was faulty from the start.
Roughly 50% of the time it would give a completely spurious reading
(empty, flashing indicating an error, half full, full). You could repeat
it by turning the car electrics on and off two or three times. It took
TWO YEARS, going to two different dealers, to get it fixed.

The water pipe going to the rear washer disconnected behind the trim at
the back - a common fault. The tech who "fixed it" didn't do it
correctly, so it happened again a week later giving our interior another
liberal dousing with soapy water.

The tyre pressure sensors regularly told us the tyres were flat or the
missing. That seemed to have been finally resolved (after TWO YEARS),
when all the wheels were replaced on the car due to excessive tyre wear
(another common fault - the fix for a poor suspension design is to
change the size of the wheels). The missing wheel sensors error came
back after that, apparently because the Master Tech didn't know you had
to recalibrate the system with the new ones.

I could go on - there have been close to 40 faults on my car. Now, why
should I respect these imbeciles who clearly shouldn't be let loose near
a car?

My supplying dealers couldn't even order the accessories I purchased
with the car (not exotic stuff - I mean things like carpet mats and mud
flaps). After chasing them for three months, I gave up and bought them
myself from another dealer (who got them in next day) and fought my
supplier for a refund.
There is a whole catalogue of errors around that - they booked the car
in to have bits fitted, I called the check they really were in, but when
I turned up they weren't. I was told the carpets were in, and given
them, but it turned out to be only half a set (they would have let me
walk out without mentioning that - it was down to me to spot their
mistake). Three months, half a dozen trips in to the showroom, countless
phonecalls, for them to fail to order a couple of hundred pounds worth
of bits.

I also tried to buy and interior cycle rack from my supplying dealer (a
couple of weeks after buying the car, so at that point I didn't realise
quite how appalling their service was). The price they quoted didn't
match the web price, so I asked them to double check, they said the web
price was wrong. OK, no problem (their price was cheaper). When the rack
came, it was the exterior one. I refused to buy it, the next day the
parts manager phoned my wife and tried to bully her into accepting it
rather than apologising for their mistake.

You should try dealing with Peugeot and my supplying dealers. Peugeot
denounce all responsibility, the dealer claims they can't do anything
without Peugeot's approval.

I've had Peugeots for a long time. When I lived around Manchester, every
one of the dealers was excellent (Brown & White who became Elton, Tom
Garner, Ashton Lyne Motors, the one at Sale whose name I don't
remember). I was a Peugeot fan, and heartily recommended them. Yes, the
cars had the odd problem, but it was always sorted out with no fuss - at
worst a short wait for a part to come in.

However, the 807 is plainly an absolutely rubbish car, and Peugeot don't
give a damn. They consider it quite acceptable for me to return over,
and over, and over again. They don't care how much it has cost me to do
so (over 1,000 miles in petrol costs, a week of lost work time, I hate
to think how many hours on the phone). Their attitude is that the car
has a three year warranty, so that gives them three years to fix it and
I am unreasonable to expect any level of competence.

Even something as stupid as getting a printout of work carried out in
the last visit - this was promised to me within a couple of days by the
service manager, now he is coming up with excuses as to why he can't do
it.

I was promised a warranty extension in August. I have had nothing but
excuses as to why they can't provide this in writing.

Now, why should I have any respect whatsoever for anyone at Peugeot?

Matt

 

Hi Marc,

I tend to agree with you. I haven't seen the ranking yet, but these
"reliability" rankings just seem pointless to me. OK there are Pugs with
problems, like the 1st 307s, but you can't compare a BMW or a Merc's
reliability once you compare the servicing they have.
I won't explain the "Mercedes recall" here, I guess we all know how it
works. Where it seems to be robbery is when you compare the price of a
Mercedes to the equivalent Pug for example : with the gap there is on the
bill, you shouldn't find any default... Seen the lastest MB Coupe test (CLR
?), there are problems with it (trimming, adjustings for example) which
shouldn't be there for the price. The 407 Coupé V6HDI is almost perfect for
almost the same price, and far less options on the list.

That was my opinion on these reliability surveys, and although not working
for PSA or any of their affiliate companies, I'm just fed up with listening
they're crap.

Regards,
G.T
205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com

 

I'm always amazed by how badly Peugeot as a whole do in these surveys. I've
had 4 Peugeots, a 405, 306 and our current 2, a 206cc and a 406. I just
looked at the rating for the 406 and can't believe it was the same car as
the survey results.
Bearing in mind mine has over 170,000 miles on the clock, I can't
believe how it has just 2 stars for handling, comfort, rattles and
steering/suspension. For each of these, I'd personally give the 406 4 stars
for each of these. As far as reliability and customer care, and costs,
that'll be different for each owner, but mine has been fine for reliability,
keeping in mind its mileage.
I think the customer care annoys people most and people are much more
likely to put the effort into these surveys if they want to complain about
their car, rather than praise it,

Neil

 

The 205 era cars were great. I don't see how anyone can defend the 807
as anything other than crap - and that is made infinitely worse by the
appalling dealer service you get in my area and the "don't give a damn"
attitude you get from Peugeot UK.

Surveys are always difficult to get right (and, in fact, if you look
closely at the results there isn't that much difference in ratings
between cars right at the bottom and those in the mid-rankings).
However, you would hope that maybe somebody high up at PSA would sit up
and wonder why they are doing so badly, and maybe get somebody in
customer care to pull their finger out and actually do some caring for
the customer.

Matt

 

I wasn`t trying to defend poor Peugeot dealers or poor Peugeot
Technicians I was just trying to highlight how difficult it is to sort
out poor electrics on cars that are obviously built to a price
,whether it be Peugeot, Ford, Vauxhall or whoever - I worked for a
main Ford dealer about six years ago who shall remain nameless - on my
first day there a couple of the Tech's asked me could I use that
thingy in that room over there - they were talking about the
diagnostic machine - they didn`t even know the name of it let alone
how to use it - I found it under a sheet covered in dust - it was like
new !
I now work for a smaller Ford dealer nearer to home and everyone knows
how to use it to some extent.
My point is don`t be fooled by the flashy exterior of a main dealer,
because the blokes fixing your car may be no better than first year
apprentices - even with the best equipment money can buy, some cars
are just pigs to work on and repair - As for the window channels and
door handles being fitted incorrectly or damaged that should not
happen and if it does the car should not have been handed back in the
first place !
One last thing - the dealer you bought the car off is this the same
dealer you keep taking it back to for repairs ?
If not - why not because nothing winds dealers up more than the bloke
that comes in and says - I just bought this car last week at such and
such a dealer and now I want you to fix this, that and the other -
they`ve made no money out of it and end up with all the crap !
If it is your supplying dealer I would find another one !!!!!!!!


..On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:37:35 +0000, Matthew Haigh

 

I appreciate that My degree was in electronics, I work in a design
environment, I know how difficult fault finding can be, especially on
intermittent faults. However, once it gets past a certain number of
faults and botched repair attempts, it becomes unreasonable for the
supplier to simply say "Oh well, never mind, bring it in again and we'll
take another look." I gave the dealers two years and close to 20
attempts to get it right before raising it to Peugeot UK. Who promptly
did absolutely nothing.

Yes, it is now (after trying another one to see if they were any better
- both dealers managed to make a mess of fitting door handles, which I
find incomprehensible).

I have been told by Peugeot that they will offer me no support unless it
is done through the supplying dealer. Not that their support is worth
anything at all.

I have found another supplying dealer to use in future - one that has
absolutely nothing to do with PSA cars Our second car (which was
also a Peugeot, also bought brand new) - was replaced last year with a
non-PSA car. The 807 will eventually be replaced with a non-PSA car from
that dealer. I cannot do that at the moment as I budgeted to replace the
807 after four to five years - I do not want to take the financial hit
of selling it on now, as it is only just coming off the exponential
depreciation curve.

Matt

 

In message <>

I remember trying to vote in that survey and I couldn't, my car was
too new. You also coundn't vote if your car was too old, and IIRC tha
maximum was something like 3 years.

So how long the engine lasts doesn't figure. And the information is
probably at least a year out of date since they don't take data about
new cars (less than a year old IIRC).

Martin

 

They tend to do it for cars around 2 years old +- 6 months, so your car
can only be entered once (I wouldn't be able enter last year, and I
won't be able to do it next year).

It doesn't reflect currently built cars, but arguably if your car is
only a year old you don't have a real idea how well built it is. If it
is much over three years old, then it is very out of date compared to
what is coming out of the factories now.

Matt

 

Touch wood, my experiences have also been excellent. In the last few years,
I can think of nine Peugeots that have lived in my immediate family - they
range from my old '89 405 1.9i GTX, to my Grandad's brand new 306 1.6 Auto.
The only major fault we've had on any of them, was the headgasket popping on
my parent's 405 1.9D NA. And even that wasn't exactly major - the gasket was
replaced, and all was well.
I have no brand loyalty whatsoever - if Peugeot made crap cars, then I
wouldn't be buying them !